Perezida Paul Kagame yagiranye ikiganiro n’ikinyamakuru Jeune Afrique, cyagarutse ku ngingo zitandukanye zaba izireba u Rwanda by’umwihariko, umubano warwo n’amahanga n’uburyo abona ingingo zitandukanye nka kudeta zimaze iminsi muri Afurika.
Ni ikiganiro bigaragara ko cyakozwe kuwa 20 Mutarama 2022, gisohorwa kuri uyu wa Gatanu n’abanyamakuru François Soudan na Romain Gras.
Muri icyo kiganiro kirekire, ibi ni bimwe mu bibazo n’ibiubizo bikubiyemo.
Hashize imyaka itatu uvuye ku buyobozi bwa AU (Afurika yunze Ubumwe), waba unyuzwe n’ishyirwa mu bikorwa ry’amavugurura mwatangije?
Hari intambwe zigaragara twateye. Uburyo twagezeho ibihugu bitangamo umusanzu hashingiwe ku bukungu bwabyo, bwatumye dushyiraho ikigega kigenewe ibikorwa by’amahoro cya miliyoni zigera muri miliyoni 200$.
Ayo yatuma tubona izindi nkunga, ariko byasabaga kubanza kugira ikigega cyihariye cya AU kugira ngo tutaguma gusaba abagiraneza kudufasha.
Ku rundi ruhande twabashije kugabanya umubare wa za komisiyo n’indi myanya mu buyobozi bw’umuryango, tunatangiza isoko rusange rya Afurika ibihugu bikomeje kwemeza kubera ko byumva akamaro karyo.
Ibihugu bimwe bya Afurika ntibyishimiye ko Israel yahabwa umwanya w’indorerezi muri AU. Mubitekerezaho iki ?
Buri gihugu gifite uburenganzira bwo kugira uko kibona iyi ngingo. Bimwe nta kibazo bifite ku kuba Israel yagirwa indorerezi, ibindi ntibibyemera.
Njye ni uku mbibona: icya mbere, icyemezo yafashwe na Perezida wa Komisiyo ya AU, Moussa Faki, cyari cyo ukurikije inzira zateganyijwe.
Icya kabiri, Israel ifitanye umubano ushingiye kuri dipolomasi n’ibihugu 46 bya Afurika, ku buryo kugirwa indorerezi bitagombaga kuba ikibazo.
Ubundi akamaro ko kuba indorerezi ni nk’amahirwe y’ibiganiro. Ntabwo bivuze ko ibibazo byagaragajwe n’ibihugu bimwe bya Afurika bitagihari, ahubwo bivuze ko bizakomeza kuganirwaho n’impande bireba.
Umwaka wa 2021 wabayemo kudeta eshatu zakozwe n’igisirikare muri Mali, Guinea na Sudan, haba n’intambara muri Ethiopia. Icyo gihe cyose AU yaracecetse, nta musanzu yatanze…
Ku bijyanye na Ethiopia, amakimbirane yashoboraga kwirindwa, ariko igihe cyararenze. Twifuza Ethiopia imwe kandi ishyize hamwe mu bice bitandukanye byayo. Twizera ko ibiganiro bifatika bizabaho.
Kuri izo kudeta eshatu, ntekereza ko ibintu nk’ibyo bibaho mbere na mbere kubera ko muri ibyo bihugu hari ibibazo bimaze imyaka myinshi ariko bidakemuka.
Nk’urugero muri Sudan: hari hariho ibibazo ku bwa Omar el-Bashir, ndetse byarakomeje na nyuma yo gushyiraho inzibacyuho.
Ibintu nk’ibyo byisubiramo, aho umuryango w’Ubumwe bwa Afurika waba uhagaze hose, kubera ko umuryango ntabwo ufite inshingano zo kuyobora ibihugu ku ruhande rwabyo, ngo bibashe gukemura ibibazo biba bimaze igihe.
AU n’umuryango mpuzamahanga bishobora gutanga umusanzu wabyo.
Ariko ibihugu biba bigomba kwishakira ibisubizo bibikwiriye, kubera ko ibihugu by’amahanga byabahatira ibisubizo byabo.
Ubushobozi budahagije bwa AU bwo gukemura bene ibyo bibazo bukomeza kuba ikibazo, nabyo byo nta wabihakana.
Mubona mute kuba igisirikare cyagarutse mu bijyanye na politiki ? Byaba ari ugusubira inyuma muri demokarasi ?
Mu buryo bumwe, ni ingaruka zo kunanirwa mu miyoborere. Ntabwo ari ikosa ry’abasirikare gusa, ahubwo n’abasivili babifitemo uruhare.
Ubundi uruhare rw’abasirikare ntabwo ari ugukora bene ibyo, ariko ntiwabura kuvuga ko rimwe na rimwe, abasivili nabo ubwabo bakora ibintu bishidikanywaho.
Niba ku butegetsi bwa gisivili, ibintu bizambye, abantu bagapfa, ibibazo bikarushaho kwiyongera, ndetse abayobozi bakifashisha abasirikare mu kwiba amatora, ni nde watunga urutoki ba basirikare nibahirika izo guverinoma? Mbona bidakwiye kunenga abasirikare gusa ntunanenge abasivili babakoresheje ngo bagume ku butegetsi.
Ntekereza ko ari kuri iyi myumvire abantu bamwe baheraho bavuga ko habaho kudeta nziza n’imbi.
Noneho n’iyo igisirikare gisobanuye impamvu z’ibyo cyakoze ndetse abasivili bakabishima, hasigara ikibazo kimwe: ese koko abasirikare bashyiraho inzibacyuho bagamije gukemura ibibazo byatumye bakora kudeta ? Ni byo bikwiye gukurikiranirwa hafi muri Guinée na Mali.
Mutekereza ko kudeta idashoboka mu Rwanda ?
Ntabwo mbizi, ariko reka mbivuge mu bundi buryo. Mbere na mbere abanyarwanda ni bo bavuga icyo babitekerezaho, barebye aho twavuye, ibyo twakoze n’ibyo dukora.
Nanone, ntabwo mbona icyatuma, baba abasirikare cyangwa n’abasivili bagera ku kutishima no kutanyurwa ku buryo byageza kuri kudeta. Imiyoborere yacu, uko mbibona, igamije gukemura ibibazo by’abaturage. Ntabwo mbona ibyo naba nakoze cyangwa nakoreye inzego byageza kuri urwo rwego.
Kuba umutwe Wagner wo mu Burusiya uri muri Centrafrique, Mozambique, ahantu hari n’ingabo z’u Rwanda, kimwe no muri Mali, byakomeje kugibwaho impaka n’u Bufaransa n’Ubumwe bw’u Burayi. Ni nayo nkomoko y’umwuka mubi hagati y’ubuyobozi bw’u Bufaransa n’ubwa Mali. Mwamagana imikoranire n’uyu mutwe wigenga ushinzwe umutekano cyangwa musanga biri mu busugire bwa za leta ?
Ibihugu bya Afurika bigomba kwihitiramo ikibibereye kandi giteza imbere amahame y’umuryango mpuzamahanga twese tubarizwamo.
Ntekereza ko habaho uburyo ibihugu bibiri bikomeye nk’u Bufaransa n’u Burusiya byaganiramo bigakemura ikibazo, kuko ntabwo mbona uburyo u Rwanda rwabigiramo uruhare kandi rutarebwa n’ikibazo.
Ku ruhande rwacu, dukora ibyo tugomba gukora ubundi tukaguma hanze y’ibibazo tudashobora gukemura.
Haba kuri guverinoma iriho muri Mali hakwiye kuba ubwo buryo, ku ruhande rwa AU na EU, bwo kuvugana by’umwihariko ku kuba umutwe wa Wagner Group uri muri icyo gihugu.
Ibikorwa bya gisirikare bya Uganda muri RDC mu ntara za Kivu ya Ruguru na Ituri zibamo imitwe myinshi irwanya ubutegetsi bw’u Rwanda byaba bibashishikaje ?
Umutwe w’iterabwoba wa ADF (Allied Democratic Forces) ni ikibazo gikomeye, kitari icya Uganda gusa. Gikora kuri RDC natwe kikatugiraho ingaruka kimwe n’ahandi mu karere. Muri ADF harimo abarwanyi bakomoka muri Uganda, Congo, u Rwanda, u Burundi, Kenya na Tanzania.
Duheruka gufatira abakora iterabwoba bo muri uriya mutwe hano mu Rwanda. Abo banyarwanda ntabwo bakoranaga na ADF ariko bari bayishamikiyeho. Twaje gutahura ko batozwaga ndetse bagahabwa amabwiriza mu mashusho n’umuntu ukorera muri RDC n’undi w’umunya-Uganda.
Amakuru dufite ni uko bateguraga ibitero mu Rwanda ngo bihorere ku bikorwa turimo mu Ntara ya Cabo Delgado muri Mozambique.
Ibyo bigaragaza ko ikibazo kireba akarere kose. Kugikemura mu buryo burambye, hagomba kubaho imbaraga z’akarere kose.
Perezida Felix Tshisekedi yabamenyesheje mbere biriya bikorwa?
Ntabwo bigeze batumenyesha mbere haba kuri RDC cyangwa Uganda. Hashize nk’ukwezi kumwe tubonye ibisobanuro.
Ubundi mbere y’uko bitangazwa, natwe twari mu biganiro na guverinoma ya Congo dusanzwe dufitanye umubano mwiza, tunafatanya gushaka umuti w’ibibazo duterwa n’imitwe yitwaje intwaro ikorera mu Burasirazuba bwa Repubulika ya Demokarasi ya Congo.
Ni ukubera ko iyi mitwe ishaka guhungabanya umutekano w’igihugu cyacu, ku buryo inyungu zacu ku rwego rw’akarere zitakwirengagizwa.
Kubera ko ibitero kuri ADF bidakozwe neza, bishobora kongerera imbaraga imitwe yitwaje intwaro hagomba kubaho ibiganiro n’ubufatanye.
Mu ntangiriro z’Ugushyingo 2021 habaye ibitero byinshi muri Kivu ya Ruguru, Ingabo za Congo zibyita ko ari iby’abarwanyi ba M23 bari mu Rwanda. Kuba aba bahoze ari abarwanyi bari ku butaka bwanyu ntibiteza umutekano muke?
Ubwo M23 yasenyukaga, bamwe mu bari abarwanyi bayo baje mu Rwanda, abandi bajya muri Uganda, abandi baguma muri Congo.
Ku baje mu Rwanda, twakomeje kuvugana ku kibazo cyabo na Guverinoma ya Joseph Kabila ndetse n’iya Felix Tshisekedi. Tukabumvisha ko twambuye intwaro abo bantu, tubashyira mu nkambi ndetse ko tugomba kugenzura ibikorwa byabo.
Ni ibintu ariko byaje gufata igihe. Twasabye ubuyobozi bwa Congo kubatwara, aho babajyana hose.
Abanya-Uganda nabo babigerageje batyo, kubera ko benshi mu bari abarwanyi ba M23 bari muri icyo gihugu.
Bamwe baracyari no mu nkambi, ariko igice kiyobowe na Sultan Makenga cyagiye gushinga ibirindiro hafi y’umupaka wa RDC, u Rwanda na Uganda, ku ruhande rwa Uganda.
Uhamaze imyaka ibiri ndetse ugenda ugaba ibitero muri RDC. Twavuganye n’ubuyobozi bwa Congo ndetse itsinda ry’ubugenzuzi ryoherejwe aho uwo mutwe ukorera. Kuvuga ko bakorana n’u Rwanda nta shingiro bifite.
Uyu munsi RDC igomba gufata icyemezo ku buryo iki kibazo cyakemurwamo. Bamwe mu bantu ba hafi b’aba barwanyi bari muri guverinoma, i Kinshasa, cyangwa baba muri RDC.
Ndetse n’abayobozi ba Congo bemera ko abari abarwanyi ba M23 bakwiye kuba bari iwabo.
Umuhungu wa Perezida Museveni, General Kainerugaba, aheruka kwandika ubutumwa aburira abashaka kukurwanya.Waje kwakira intumwa ya Uganda. Yaba ari intangiriro y’ubwiyunge hagati ya Kampala na Kigali?
Umushoramari wese agomba guhora areba inyungu abona mu mafaranga yasohoye. Yego hari ibiganiro, ariko ntegereje kureba niba bijyanye n’imbaraga zishyirwamo.
Kugeza ubu nta musaruro mbona kandi mbimbwira intumwa nakira. Bamwe bishimira amafoto ya nyuma y’igikorwa bagatekereza ko bigeze ku iherezo. Njye ntabwo ari ko biri. Gusa nashimye amagambo y’umuhungu wa Perezida Museveni. Ariko ndizera ko tuzarenga ahongaho tukagera ku musaruro ufatika.
Nubwo hagaragara ibimenyetso byo kuzahura umubano, ntabwo murahura na mugenzi wanyu w’u Burundi, Evariste Ndayishimiye. Ni iki gituma iyo ntambwe idashoboka?
Ku bwanjye ntacyo. Nta kibazo kiri hagati yacu. Abayobozi b’inzego z’umutekano zacu na ba Minisitiri b’ububanyi n’amahanga barahuye. Minisitiri w’Intebe wacu yitabiriye irahira rya Perezida Ndayishimiye. Uko guhura kuzabaho mu gihe gikwiye.
Urubanza rwa Felicien Kabuga ku byaha bya Jenoside n’ibyibasiye inyokomuntu ruzatangira mu mezi make i La Haye. Mutekereza ko ibihugu byafashije uyu mugabo kwihisha imyaka 25 bikwiye kuryozwa ubufatanyacyaha?
Icyo kibazo ntabwo kindaje ishinga. Iki kibazo kimaze imyaka myinshi. Kuba Kabuga ari mu maboko y’ubutabera ubwabyo birahagije. Abantu benshi bagize uruhare mu gutuma yihishahisha, ariko mbihariye ubutabera ngo bukurikirane iyi dosiye mu buryo bukwiriye.
Mwaba mwarahagaritse, ku bw’umubano wanyu mwiza n’u Bufaransa, gukurikirana dosiye ya Agathe Habyarimana?
Ntabwo nigeze mbikora. Ubutabera bukwiye gukomeza muri iyo dosiye mu gihe n’umubano n’u Bufarana ugenda utera imbere. Ntabwo ntekereza ko imwe muri izo dosiye igomba kubangamira indi. Ziruzuzanya.
Kuba hari abanyarwanda umunani muri Niger barezwe ibyaha bya jenoside, barimo abagizwe abere cyangwa abarangije ibihano, biheruka kuzamo ibibazo. Iyo dosiye igeze he?
Ikinyoma cya mbere, muri iki kibazo, ni ukuvuga ko u Rwanda rwamenyeshejwe ko abo bantu bagiye kujyanwa muri Niger. Nta muntu wigeze abitubwira! Twabimenye nyuma y’iminsi mike bageze i Niamey. Kubera iki babihishe niba uko kwimurirwayo kwari gusanzwe?
Ikibazo cya kabiri: nta kintu na kimwe cyakozwe ngo hizerwe ko abo bantu batazongera kwijandika mu byaha bisa n’ibyo bakoze mu gihe cyahise.
Ugasanga babaho mu buzima bwiza, bakongera guhura n’abajenosideri bakoranaga, bagasubukura umugambi wo guhungabanya u Rwanda nk’uko babikoraga na mbere.
Hari uwabona ibyo ari ibisanzwe? Uwo si njye, ariko ni yo si tubamo.
Urubanza rwa Rusesabagina muri Nzeri umwaka ushize wakatiwe n’urukiko gufungwa imyaka 25 kubera gushyigikira umutwe wakoze iterabwoba mu Rwanda, rwanenzwe cyane mu Burayi na Amerika, bavuga ko atahawe ubutabera bukwiye. Kubera iki ubutabera bw’u Rwanda bujorwa cyane hanze y’igihugu?
Wahera ku kwibaza impamvu ibi bihugu byivanga muri iki kibazo. Ibyo uyu muntu yakoze ntabwo bikwiye mu Rwanda ndetse by’umwihariko mu bihugu bimuvuganira.
Muri ibyo bihugu “byubahiriza demokarasi”, abantu bakora ibyaha nka biriya bahabwa ibihano biremereye cyangwa bakicwa, kenshi nta n’urubanza rubaye. Ariko nibyo bihugu birimo kuvuganira Rusesabagina uyu munsi!
Nta gitutu kizahindura uko ibintu bikwiye kumera.
Urubanza rwe rwabereye mu ruhame, nta banga ririmo. Muri make aba bantu bashobora kuba batabona ukuri cyangwa bagahitamo kukwirengagiza, cyangwa se ntabwo bitaye ku bibazo by’abandi.
Ntabwo bibasira ubutabera bwacu gusa. Basaba ko Rusesabagina arekurwa, ibyaha byamuhama, bitamuhama.
Amatora ataha ya perezida azaba mu 2024. Mujya muyatekerezaho?
Ni ngombwa. Naba nzayitabira cyangwa ntazayitabira, biri mu kazi kanjye. Ntabwo ngomba kubitekerezaho uyu munsi gusa ahubwo n’ejo. Nshaka ko mu 2024 Abanyarwanda bazagaragaza amahitamo yabo, bagafata icyemezo mu mahoro asesuye.
Uzaba uri umukandida?
Birashoboka, ntabwo ndabimenya. Itegeko nshinga rirabinyemerera.
